From mta at agrip.org.uk Mon Dec 1 15:46:52 2008 From: mta at agrip.org.uk (Matthew Tylee Atkinson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:46:52 +0000 Subject: [AGDev-newbies] Future of AGDev -- Domain Expiration Message-ID: <01B8A359-076F-4DFB-BB2B-AF6D34BE79DE@agrip.org.uk> I hope this email finds you all well! AGDev has not been used actively for some months and the domain is about to lapse (in January). I feel most disappointed that I have not been able to contribute more to the community but now after getting back on my feet since the accident, I'm facing waning funding and very little time to complete my research so can't really foresee being able to contribute much more. I know that some AGDev'ers have formed contacts with other organisations such as IGDA and am wondering if AGDev is still needed. If it is, then would someone be willing to take over the domain? I am not sure if I can afford the server space for it any more, but am willing to discuss this if people really want it. Perhaps making an IGDA mailing list for it and moving any useful content of our Wiki to the IGDA GA-SIG Wiki is a good move? It seems that there are already a lot of standards organisations and we don't want to present a fragmented approach. If anyone's still out there, perhaps we can have a discussion about how AGDev can be taken forward or retired gracefully? best regards, -- Matthew Tylee Atkinson http://mta.agrip.org.uk/ From claudio.zeni at bluewin.ch Mon Dec 1 16:25:51 2008 From: claudio.zeni at bluewin.ch (Claudio) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:25:51 +0100 Subject: [AGDev-newbies] Future of AGDev -- Domain Expiration In-Reply-To: <01B8A359-076F-4DFB-BB2B-AF6D34BE79DE@agrip.org.uk> References: <01B8A359-076F-4DFB-BB2B-AF6D34BE79DE@agrip.org.uk> Message-ID: <005a01c953d1$7a3454d0$628f140a@bstz.ch> Hi, I'm still here for some monts and I'm also wondering what's going on with this list. I would like to discuss about the developement of audiogames, but nobody is here... Really a pitty! Regards, Claudio. From mta at agrip.org.uk Mon Dec 1 17:16:14 2008 From: mta at agrip.org.uk (Matthew Tylee Atkinson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:16:14 +0000 Subject: [AGDev-newbies] Future of AGDev -- Domain Expiration In-Reply-To: <005a01c953d1$7a3454d0$628f140a@bstz.ch> References: <01B8A359-076F-4DFB-BB2B-AF6D34BE79DE@agrip.org.uk> <005a01c953d1$7a3454d0$628f140a@bstz.ch> Message-ID: <6B463FD2-DCAC-4468-8A3B-35E8298A20AA@agrip.org.uk> On 1 Dec 2008, at 16:25, Claudio wrote: > I'm still here for some monts and I'm also wondering what's going on > with > this list. > I would like to discuss about the developement of audiogames, but > nobody is > here... > Really a pitty! This is one of the reasons I'd like to see AGDev -- or at least parts of it -- taken over rather than outright scrapped; there doens't seem to be development equivalent of the Audyssey list, for example. The research and standards development side of AGDev is now even more redundant than it was, because we have got better contacts with the likes of IGDA and AudioGames.net, but the "helping new developers" angle still needs attention -- sadly just not attention I can currently provide, personally at least. Maybe a Google Groups thingy would suffice? It would need someone to help publicise it though. Maybe adding a development list to Audyssey? Anyone else... comments welcome :-) -- Matthew Tylee Atkinson http://mta.agrip.org.uk/ From mta at agrip.org.uk Tue Dec 2 21:02:23 2008 From: mta at agrip.org.uk (Matthew Tylee Atkinson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:02:23 +0000 Subject: [AGDev-newbies] Summary so far Message-ID: Thanks to the three of you for replies so far. I think that we're talking about three different resources that are currently under the banner of AGDev that need to be moved to a more appropriate home. 1. Stuff on the Wiki (if any of it is still of value). 2. The developers/research mailing list. 3. The newbies' mailing list. I appreciate the offer of Tom to host the stuff, but given that the main problems of AGDev have been due to busy-ness on the part of the maintainers (largely myself) I would suggest it's best we try to get these things moved to places that will decrease the load on developers (after all it was meant to and did seem to help us when it was active). IMHO it would be nice if we could keep the newbies list with the develoeprs' list because it will encourage more disabled people to join up and think about making games. I would say a benefit that has come from AGDev has been making some contacts in organisations such as IGDA and I would like to see those continue in future, but accept that they may easily be unable to take on the mailing lists -- in fact I'd be extremely surprised if they were able to. The nice thing about them is that they are dealing with general game accessibility; not just that for the vision-impaired and blind. As I said, the less fragmentation of community sites the better IMHO so it would be good to put it in a place where others will use it. This leaves either a place like Audyssey, AudioGames.net (though they use a web-based system IIRC) or us simply signing up for a Google Group or similar and getting someone to shout about it. We'll see if anyone else replies to offer any such service. I realise it's not the best time of year but I was only recently reminded of the expiration. I'd rather not continue to host the Wiki but if we do set up anything I don't suppose there is harm in me renewing the domain and hosting a static page to point people on to the right places (though I'd still rather not if possible). I meant to say this earlier but I ought to at least now: I have really appreciated the chance to work together with other AG Devs and though from my perceptive, due to the accident, it didn't last long, it was enjoyable and I hope that in future it will be an area I come back to. It has been most rewarding to find that, although we may be busy, other developers took an interest in this project. I think we've made some good contacts and at least raised awareness of the need for a resource like this and I have learnt a lot in the process. It would be great if the successful parts of it (i.e. discussion lists) could be kept together and promoted a bit more. It seems I will be moving on to other things for a little while at least, so I do wish you all the very best of luck and look forward to hearing through the grapevine about the projects you'll be working on -- and hopefully having time to play with some of them again in future! Perhaps if we don't hear much more about this from AGDev members, an email to the audyssey mods would be a good idea, to ask about hosting. (I'm happy to send it but I think we should give it a few days more.) best regards, -- Matthew Tylee Atkinson http://mta.agrip.org.uk/ From mta at agrip.org.uk Wed Dec 3 00:49:45 2008 From: mta at agrip.org.uk (Matthew Tylee Atkinson) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:49:45 +0000 Subject: [AGDev-newbies] [AGDev-discuss] Summary so far In-Reply-To: <4935D42A.20401@usagames.us> References: <4935D42A.20401@usagames.us> Message-ID: On 3 Dec 2008, at 00:34, Thomas Ward wrote: > Well, as one of the moderators of the Audyssey list I'd say the > decision > to host the agdev lists on Audyssey would depend on Raul. he owns the > domain and list subscription, and it would be his choice if he > wanted to > pay to add another list to the Audyssey account. I'm going to say do > to > the lack of interest on the agdev and agdev-newbies lists at the > moment > it isn't worth it. Sorry; I was not aware you were one of the mods. I'm also shocked to find that people are having to pay to host mailing lists! I would have thought there ought to be at least one free and accessible alternative out there. If some code could be associated with Audyssey then Launchpad.net would host the mailing lists for free (and is a great and accessible software development resource). But that's a digression. I would be upset to see AGDev just close; it would be nice if we could find a place that would host and promote the lists as they were once popular and IMHO could be even more popular if we tapped into more than just the VI and blind AG groups. But, with a sigh, it's not going to be possible for me to evangelise it so I cannot expect anyone else to. Thanks for the update. Best regards, -- Matthew Tylee Atkinson http://mta.agrip.org.uk/ From GuitarBabe at earthlink.net Wed Dec 3 08:57:25 2008 From: GuitarBabe at earthlink.net (Cara Quinn) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:57:25 -0800 Subject: [AGDev-newbies] [AGDev-discuss] Summary so far In-Reply-To: References: <4935D42A.20401@usagames.us> Message-ID: <6B8F5353-03B1-4076-82EB-0A2D5E3A144B@earthlink.net> Matthew, I'm happy to start / lightly moderate the AGDev / AGDevNewbies lists as Google Groups or yahoo groups as I already own several lists and two more really won't be that big an issue. :) However, while I support these efforts very much, as I've said before, I'd need someone else to really put the time into the PR aspects. Honestly, the lack of traffic on this list, for one thing, shows me that there's just not that much apparent interest from others here?? yes?? Smiles, Cara :) On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:49 PM, Matthew Tylee Atkinson wrote: > On 3 Dec 2008, at 00:34, Thomas Ward wrote: >> Well, as one of the moderators of the Audyssey list I'd say the >> decision >> to host the agdev lists on Audyssey would depend on Raul. he owns the >> domain and list subscription, and it would be his choice if he >> wanted to >> pay to add another list to the Audyssey account. I'm going to say do >> to >> the lack of interest on the agdev and agdev-newbies lists at the >> moment >> it isn't worth it. > > Sorry; I was not aware you were one of the mods. I'm also shocked to > find that people are having to pay to host mailing lists! I would > have thought there ought to be at least one free and accessible > alternative out there. If some code could be associated with Audyssey > then Launchpad.net would host the mailing lists for free (and is a > great and accessible software development resource). But that's a > digression. > > I would be upset to see AGDev just close; it would be nice if we could > find a place that would host and promote the lists as they were once > popular and IMHO could be even more popular if we tapped into more > than just the VI and blind AG groups. But, with a sigh, it's not > going to be possible for me to evangelise it so I cannot expect anyone > else to. > > Thanks for the update. > > Best regards, > > > -- > Matthew Tylee Atkinson > http://mta.agrip.org.uk/ > _______________________________________________ > AGDev-newbies mailing list > AGDev-newbies at lists.agdev.org > http://lists.agdev.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/agdev-newbies --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn From mail at sabahattin-gucukoglu.com Wed Dec 3 12:09:25 2008 From: mail at sabahattin-gucukoglu.com (Sabahattin Gucukoglu) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:09:25 -0000 Subject: [AGDev-newbies] Summary so far In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493676F5.3982.317C9B94@mail.sabahattin-gucukoglu.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, On 2 Dec 2008 at 21:02, Matthew Tylee Atkinson said: > 2. The developers/research mailing list. > 3. The newbies' mailing list. These should not be sacrificed because of closure of the agdev.org domain, although I can't deny that, because of the huge number of role accounts at agdev.org that point straight at me, I'd get one helofalot less spam because of it. But that's beside the point. We should keep the discussion aspect of agdev going. No-one else will take that, and we can hardly expect them to. Since I'm personally not enamoured by the wiki and website of Agdev, and since there's quite enough web presence of VI-accessible games elsewhere (IGDA GA-SIG, AudioGames.net, company websites, etc.), it seems pointless to do much more than link there. And web forums are horrid affairs. But mailing lists are cheap and easy, they can be hosted in many places free or commercial, they can be hosted on any box anybody may have for often nothing at all in these days of broadband connections, and it just seems silly not to want to keep that aspect going (I don't think the domain name is a real concern and, in fact, probably should just be deleted given no web presence). All that having been said, I am a postmaster and like a challenge, and that's probably still a big reason for my interest in keeping a mailing list. > IMHO it would be nice if we could keep the newbies list with the > develoeprs' list because it will encourage more disabled people to > join up and think about making games. I don't understand why this was never the default condition. Again in keeping the focus of discussion as non-fragmented and unified as possible, denying new people the ability to talk with experienced developers in the face of what is obviously a shortage of discussion seems a bit counterintuitive. Why the hostility and rank? I had to forward many messages from newbies asking to sign up who had contacted the primary chairperson address and technical contact, when it would have been simpler for them to just hop on board and get on with it. > I would say a benefit that has come from AGDev has been making some > contacts in organisations such as IGDA and I would like to see those > continue in future, but accept that they may easily be unable to take on > the mailing lists -- in fact I'd be extremely surprised if they were able > to. The nice thing about them is that they are dealing with general game > accessibility; not just that for the vision-impaired and blind. As I > said, the less fragmentation of community sites the better IMHO so it > would be good to put it in a place where others will use it. There is no doubt that these discussion forums are needed. I agree that the contacts have been helpful, though I'd stress our needs are quite unique and, in fact, probably don't agree with all of the views and recommendations set forth by other organisations who are often less experienced or less aware of them because of lacking communications. Channels of open communications incorporating gamers and developers from both camps are thus highly necessary. If losing Agdev means losing the one such method, even if it's just a popular mailing list on freelists.org where those in the interest/know convene in an entirely politically- neutral fashion , then I do not want to see Agdev die. Perhaps, though, a fairer representation of disabilities would be necessary for that kind of global contact to happen. As I said though, fortunately, I think this is more than possible without taking up too many peoples' valuable time. Not, as you said, that I'd be all the happier if I knew it didn't. > This leaves either a place like Audyssey, AudioGames.net (though they use > a web-based system IIRC) or us simply signing up for a Google Group or > similar and getting someone to shout about it. I do like Google Groups, ads not withstanding: they're fast and reliable, and they have tools for building web pages and uploading files. I don't have a comprehensive accessibility review, but I think it's a better Yahoo for certain. Freelists is good except that it's quite complicated, so it would probably not appeal to anybody but the most hardened geek. They are basically free Ecartis advocates. They have had reliability and deliverability problems quite recently and in the course of their existence. And, of course, somebody with a spare box can do it the hard way; on Windows Mercury has an excellent mailing list manager that I think most people could probably dig, while on Unix-likes, well, we know all the options, like Mailman or Ecartis etc. Whatever it is, I'm quite happy to get it going. For me, it should be set up and forget. Cheers, Sabahattin - -- Sabahattin Gucukoglu sabahattingucukoglucom> Address harvesters, snag this: feedme at yamta.org Phone: +44 20 88008915 Mobile: +44 7986 053399 http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8 Comment: QDPGP - http://community.wow.net/grt/qdpgp.html iQA/AwUBSTZ29iNEOmEWtR2TEQIKhwCeO3NRjenvu//GsgphE6WwgFUKo+4An3wB DQqImqE6iseZTLniuCEsWjSB =Ji53 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----